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NotaPublicado: Dom 16-Mar-2014 17:52 
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Registrado: Dom 16-Mar-2014 17:33
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Hello,

I discovered this Forum quite by accident, and hope someone here might be able to assist.

I am looking for a list of the Spanish Colonial post offices that were in operation in MEXICO prior to the Independence of Mexico at the beginning of the 19th Century. In an ideal situation, that list would identify the post office in operation at the beginning of Mexico’s Constitutional government circa Dec 1824, and would include information regarding dates they were placed in operation.

I am hoping that some expert in the postal history of the Spanish Colonial period may have constructed such a list, or know of such a list.

I have been unable to locate such a list of post offices using traditional sources in the United States.

I prefer correspondence in English if possible. I can read some Spanish, but need assistance from friends (or Google Translate which is not good) to write it. All replies acknowledged.

Thank you.

Mike


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NotaPublicado: Mar 18-Mar-2014 10:25 
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Registrado: Vie 30-Ene-2004 21:20
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Hello,

I'm not a colonial prephilatelic specialist, but I've asked some friends and got some information about what you're looking for. It comes from the Archivo General de Indias.

Please find attached two pages from the Inventario de la Sección de Correos regarding the general accounting for the 1819-1821 period. The term "Administración Agregada" stands for major post office.

I hope this helps. Regards.

Administracion de Correos de Mexico 1819-1821.pdf


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NotaPublicado: Mar 18-Mar-2014 17:17 
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Registrado: Dom 16-Mar-2014 17:33
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Thank you. I can probably construct something from this that will be a preliminary list.

I had found similar lists in bibliography of postal documents at the Biblioteca de Administracion de Correos in Mexico City, but was reluctant to spend the time to construct a list of post offices before looking elsewhere to see if someone might have already done so.

For anyone else intersted in this subject, another response suggested the publication: Prefilatelia Espanola, Estudio de las Marcas Postales de Espana y Sus Dominios de Indias, Siglos XVIII y XIX by Guinovart y Tizon, 1971. Volume 2 is supposed to have a list of offices and information on postal markings. I'm looking for a copy to review.

Mike


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NotaPublicado: Mar 18-Mar-2014 18:39 
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Mike, the book you are looking for is the main catalogue in Spanish Prephilately and gathers all the known marks until 1850, but on a town-date basis. The third and latest edition is from 2004 (1971, 1983, 2004) and its fourth volume covers America.

Regarding Mexico (Virreinato de Nueva España), it contains a lot of marks and post offices but I don't know if it will be useful for you since they are classified regardless of the current postal organization, just the period for which the marks are known.

Anyway, you will find below the undated list of Intendencias and offices it contains, which I suppose (any reference to) belongs to the 1774/1791 re-organization. Please keep in mind that this list is for the ones their existence is known.

The catalogue has been edited by Edifil (http://www.edifil.es) and you can buy it there if you want. It's really expensive and the information it contains will be useful on a marcophilic approach only, marks, patterns and colors. Completely useless when dealing with postal history.

Intendencias Nueva España

Regards.


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NotaPublicado: Sab 22-Mar-2014 01:28 
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Registrado: Dom 16-Mar-2014 17:33
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Thank you very much.

It appears that this second list will also be very useful and I have been trying to compare the two lists.

My interest in this list of Colonial era post offices of Mexico is part of an effort on my part to identify the post offices which were operating at the time of Mexico's independence from Spain in 1821/1824. Joesph Schatzkes, in his work on early cancellations of Mexico: 1856-1874, mentions in his Introduction that Samuel Chapman, another early stamp collector and postal historian of Mexico, had reported that in 1824, there were 17 district offices and 383 others (for a total of 400 offices). However, I've not been able to track down a publication by Chapman that either provides a list of these offices, or identifies his source for this information.

Chapman did have virtually unlimited access to the Mexican postal archives in the late 19th and early 20th century, and it is possible he found some lists there.

In the meantime, I've been looking for an approach (short of traveling to Mexico City) to try and reconstruct such a list. It had occurred to me that the list of post offices at the beginning of Mexico independence would be quite similar to the list at the end of the Spanish Colonial period.

I have completed a preliminary comparison of the two lists and attempted to consolidate the results into a single list. One of the difficulties encountered is the variations in both the spellings of town/post office names, and the changes in these names over time.

The preliminary results are:

From the List in Colonial Inventorio 1819, there were a total of 214 post offices identified.
From the list in Prefilitelica Espana, there were a total of 212 post offices.

From these two lists, I was able to only identify only 110 post offices that were common to both lists, leaving some 100 additional post offices on each list that were unique to the one list. If one assumes that I did not miss connecting post offices between the two lists, there there were only a total of 326 post offices on my consolidated list, still short by 74 post offices based on the Chapman/Schatzkes post office count cited earlier.

This is certainly a start, but it is far from complete.

One bibliographic question. From which edition/year was thisPrefilitelica Espana list taken? I'd like to be able to document the sources correctly.

Anyone with additional thoughts on this subject can post them here or contact me via e-mail.

Thanks,
Mike


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NotaPublicado: Sab 22-Mar-2014 12:11 
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MML escribió:
My interest in this list of Colonial era post offices of Mexico is part of an effort on my part to identify the post offices which were operating at the time of Mexico's independence from Spain in 1821/1824. Joesph Schatzkes, in his work on early cancellations of Mexico: 1856-1874, mentions in his Introduction that Samuel Chapman, another early stamp collector and postal historian of Mexico, had reported that in 1824, there were 17 district offices and 383 others (for a total of 400 offices).

Keeping in mind that the independence was in 1821 these office quantities (17 and 383) could have no relation to the latest colonial ones. Three years and the building of a new organization could boost the number of post offices. I would check the official decrees and orders of the new government for these years (1821-24) in order to figure out the changes made in the former post organization or at least to visualize wether the reorganization of the post organization was a priority in these years.

MML escribió:
In the meantime, I've been looking for an approach (short of traveling to Mexico City) to try and reconstruct such a list. It had occurred to me that the list of post offices at the beginning of Mexico independence would be quite similar to the list at the end of the Spanish Colonial period.

Again, I would not be so sure of that. What I expect to be almost the same -if not the same- is the structure of major routes and main disrtict offices.

MML escribió:
I have completed a preliminary comparison of the two lists and attempted to consolidate the results into a single list. One of the difficulties encountered is the variations in both the spellings of town/post office names, and the changes in these names over time.

Yes, that's one of the first things to be changed when changing a government. Further geographical investigation through colonial and post-independence maps will be required.

MML escribió:
The preliminary results are:

From the List in Colonial Inventorio 1819, there were a total of 214 post offices identified.
From the list in Prefilitelica Espana, there were a total of 212 post offices.

From these two lists, I was able to only identify only 110 post offices that were common to both lists, leaving some 100 additional post offices on each list that were unique to the one list. If one assumes that I did not miss connecting post offices between the two lists, there there were only a total of 326 post offices on my consolidated list, still short by 74 post offices based on the Chapman/Schatzkes post office count cited earlier.

I wouldn't presume that these unrelated 110 are not common, most probably are mostly the same under different names, keep in mind that the numbers are very close. The Inventario list comes from the IRS and therefore contains the accounting nuclear items. The Tizon list comes from the gathered postal marks.

I'd presume that the information from Inventario and Tizon states for the major post offices, the ones with own post mark and duties on account reporting, disregarding the minor offices... which were raised to this category by Chapman due to the post-independence organization changes.

The number of district offices (17 in 1824 vs 14 pre-independence) is quite similar, it would be enough the category raising of a couple of large offices (i.e. Mexico DF, Veracruz...) to match the numbers. The other is too different (383 vs about 200) and it doesn't look like possible to reach by creating new offices from scratch in such a tumultuous period of three years.

At last, supporting this approach we could find the last sentence of Tizon:
Citar:
Se hace la observación que durante el período colonial existieron muchas otras Administraciones que no ha sido posible relacionar en las listas precedentes

what in a free translation means:
Citar:
It should be noted that during the colonial period there were many other post offices that could not be detailed


MML escribió:
This is certainly a start, but it is far from complete.

Yes, you will get a lot of fun :wink:

MML escribió:
One bibliographic question. From which edition/year was thisPrefilitelica Espana list taken? I'd like to be able to document the sources correctly.

TIZON, Manuel. Prefilatelia Española. Third Edition. Madrid-Barcelona: Edifil, 2004. ISBN 84-95019-19-1

As for 2nd edition:
TIZON, Manuel y GUINOVART, Jorge. Prefilatelia Española. Second Edition. Barcelona. 1983. ISBN 84-398-0133-5
(contains the same introductory information and lists)

Don't have the first edition, sorry.

Regards.


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